Proposal #26: MetaGame x Raid Guild = Playbooks UI

[peth]

Raid Guild is starting another cohort & they got a new offer for people who might want to take part in it.

I think this is a great opportunity to push the Playbooks UI forward.
We’ve been talking for a long time that we should make the UX of submitting playbooks smooth vs. having people go through the whole github process which is a hassle even if you know how but 99% writers also have no idea how.

This could be done in docusaurus but its a waste of time because docusaurus won’t allow to later build on other features such as upvoting, sorting/filtering, commenting, also won’t benefit from the design system etc. etc. so its better to move it to TheGame repo right away.

It has all already been well described & mostly specced out.

But the first time it didn’t go so great with Raid Guild!

Arguably, the reason none of the builders they sent us stuck around is because the mint was like a month late so they get both a safer & higher pay in RG, as well as more professional builders they can learn from.

However, the first time: we gave them $1k to be introduced as sponsors without any guarantee that any of our quests will be completed.
This time: they’re asking for $5-10k but instead of just sponsoring, there is a guarantee that they will build a whole project for us .

$5-10k?

This really doesn’t sound like a lot of money to build the basic version of the Playbooks. That’s around how much a single full time builder is paid in MetaGame per month & it took many moons to build the basic version of MyMeta (albeit that is probably more complicated) while in this case we’ll get multiple people to build a basic version in a month.

The final price ultimately depends on the features we want the first version to have. It could be $5k or it could be $10k but its up to us.

Why we should do it?

Multiple reasons:

• First of all, there are many things we need built & we still lack active developers
• Its a good bridgebuilding effort, further strengthening the bond between MG & RG
• We get more eyes on MetaGame & potentially get more active builders, designers & writers
• Bonus: it will help with the fundraise.

#1 is a good enough reason but please don’t underestimate #2 & #3.

But we could probably do it ourselves!

Yes, we probably could.
But it would probably take us much more longer than a month & also…
Other than at least 3-4 important MyMeta issues that aren’t being picked up & the whole raid planned for making MyMeta usable by other projects, there’s also a need for: the landing page, Seeds page, making things open inside MetaOS, Questing system, Great Houses UI, MetaRadio page & many others that nobody is working on - these are just off the top of my head.

I still think we should do it ourselves!

Why though? One of the main reasons for even building this whole network is so that we don’t have to do everything ourselves.
To me it sounds like the beginning of tribalism when imo we should really be working towards aligning everyone with MetaGame so that MetaFam (us) is not the only guild that is building MetaGame.

Will there be “our” people in there though?

I’m a member of Raid Guild, jonathanp & taekikz who are co-running the cohort are both members of MetaFam, dan13 is coming back from a roadtrip & I’ll ask him to take part.

Also, afaik anyone else from MetaFam is also free to join the cohort &/or join the Playbooks raid. We’ll invite the team to Builder Align calls etc.

But the money was already voted to be put into the liquidity pool!

Well, we can vote to take $5-10k out of that but I’m also willing to personally cover for it & be paid back after the fundraise.

Proposal

Pay Raid Guild to build the first version of the Playbooks UI in a month.

• Submit a Playbook
  • By connecting your wallet & writing it in a rich text editor.
• Upvote a Playbook
  • By spending 0.1 Seed
• Comment on a Playbook
  • With a Web3 tool eg. Convo Space
• Browse Playbooks
  • Ranked by Seeds earned

I know this sounds simple to non-technical people but I got a confirmation from one of our own builders that this is worth $10k.

Also, we are minting >$150k a month so I don’t see how giving $10k to another organization to build a project for us is a big deal - even if we had enough builders & not to mention other benefits.

What if they don’t build it or don’t build it properly

We are only paying them after the project has been complete so the payment & the amount will still depend upon the outcome.

[tenfinney]

Probably too much $$$ for a website, and would probably result top-heavy project management that is not necessary for a relatively light-lift.

In MetaGame, the same players who create the playbooks are skilled enough to offer a UI connected to IPFS/Ceramic.

I could name a few MetaGame players that I think would be grateful for a few thousand dollars to spin up the website. Maybe, it could be offered as a first-right -of-refusal to existing players before it’s offered or sent outward without at querying the most qualified MetaGamers.

Ultimately, that budget should probably stay in-house and used to incentivize new players as well as existing ones. $10,000 would certainly be appreciated by our current player talent.

The entire process as well as a professional website can be made in-house without distracting from the existing MyMeta initiatives.

Furthermore, we would be proud of the in-house work, and accomplishment.

[peth]

@tenfinney

Ultimately, that budget should probably stay in-house and used to incentivize new players as well as existing ones. $10,000 would certainly be appreciated by our current player talent.

The entire process as well as a professional website can be made in-house without distracting from the existing MyMeta initiatives.

Furthermore, we would be proud of the in-house work, and accomplishment.

$5-10k, not $10k.
Our builders are already getting paid well regardless of this issue being sent to another guild or not.

I highly doubt it. The Playbooks UI has been an open issue for months & so have a bunch of critical MyMeta issues that still have nobody working on them.
Other than at least 3-4 important MyMeta issues that aren’t being picked up, there’s also a need for the landing page, Seeds page, Great Houses UI, making things open inside MetaOS, Questing system, MetaRadio page & many others that nobody is working on - these are just off the top of my head.

You also keep making a distinction between “in-house” & “metagamers” vs “raid guilders?” which I think is misguided. We are not MetaGame, we are MetaFam & we are meant to be just one of many guilds bringing MetaGame to life. Another guild that is also a member of MetaGame is supposed to be just as “in-house” as MetaFam & we should be proud of the collective achievement, the realization of MetaGame.

I think you’re also undervaluing the importance of points #2 & #3: the benefits to both bridgebuilding in terms of strengthening the connection with Raid Guild as well as the potential to bring in new active players (we’re currently at 89/150).

Not sure if this is you pushing your personal agenda of shoving a square peg into a round hole (literally, because your doughnut neither fits the design system made by Dave nor the requirements set by Playbooks) or the beginning of tribalism within MetaGame, but me no like it either way.

[tenfinney]

Directly from the MetaGame Manifesto:
" And this is a system for the players, by the players and of the players of Metagame. No one dictates nothing. Instead, Metagame is defined by the ideas, resources and the path that the community leads in ( similar to how a citizen’s work shapes up an economy ) while each one of the player has his/her own strategy. But the difference is, Metagame is not ruled by a single dictator and at the same time, Metagame won’t impose orders on one’s own way of playing the game. It’s upto one’s strategy to make the best out of it and at the same time offer the best to it in return ( as what you get out of it is dependent on what you offer and how Metagame’s economy is shaped from the contributions )."

[tenfinney]

@peth

Not sure if this is you pushing your personal agenda of shoving a square peg into a round hole (literally, because your doughnut neither fits the design system made by Dave nor the requirements set by Playbooks) or the beginning of tribalism within MetaGame, but me no like it either way.

This statement is curious, and seems like the antithesis of what MetaGame’s Manifesto indicates. The first thing i did before joining MG was read the manifest a few times, and I believed you believed it.
But sometime things are pretty well disguised. If capitulation is what is required and the story has already been written, spectating is also a worthy avenue.

[tenfinney]

@peth

We are not MetaGame, we are MetaFam & we are meant to be just one of many guilds bringing MetaGame to life. Another guild that is also a member of MetaGame is supposed to be just as “in-house” as MetaFam & we should be proud of the collective achievement, the realization of MetaGame.

BTW, Thank you for pointing this out because it did not fully register until now. It makes some things that did not make sense earlier, more clear.
I was really confused in your proposal where your said this “this time they’re asking for $5-10k,”;
that made it not seem like a family gesture, it seemed like a subcontractor relationship or worse, like membership dues.
Which maybe would be easier to put up a vote for that, instead of a website built by a new cohort.

[peth]

Responding like a true lawyer!

@tenfinney

" And this is a system for the players, by the players and of the players of Metagame. No one dictates nothing. Instead, Metagame is defined by the ideas, resources and the path that the community leads in ( similar to how a citizen’s work shapes up an economy ) while each one of the player has his/her own strategy. But the difference is, Metagame is not ruled by a single dictator and at the same time, Metagame won’t impose orders on one’s own way of playing the game. It’s upto one’s strategy to make the best out of it and at the same time offer the best to it in return ( as what you get out of it is dependent on what you offer and how Metagame’s economy is shaped from the contributions )."

I agree but not sure how its relevant.

@tenfinney

This statement is curious, and seems like the antithesis of what MetaGame’s Manifesto indicates. The first thing i did before joining MG was read the manifest a few times, and I believed you believed it.
But sometime things are pretty well disguised. If capitulation is what is required and the story has already been written, spectating is also a worthy avenue.

I didn’t say you are forbidden to push your personal agenda, only trying to say that sometimes personal agendas aren’t aligned nor what’s best for the project as a whole

Its not me who made the decision that “all pieces of MetaGame should follow the same design principles as laid out by the Designers Guild” nor that the Playbooks require way more info & features than your UI can properly accommodate.

@tenfinney

BTW, Thank you for pointing this out because it did not fully register until now. It makes some things that did not make sense earlier, more clear.

Yeah, that’s why there’s the whole distinction between MetaFam & MetaGame and why MetaFam is listed as one of the guilds on metagame.wtf/guilds. We are not MetaGame, MetaGame is MetaGame & many more people (than are players) are playing it without even realizing.

@tenfinney

I was really confused in your proposal where your said this “this time they’re asking for $5-10k,”;
that made it not seem like a family gesture, it seemed like a subcontractor relationship or worse, like membership dues.

…because players of MetaGame work for free?

---

I don’t like being called a dictator for explaining the current state of things. The current state of things was neither set by me alone nor is it permanent. You are still free to push your own agenda or put literally any part of this up for vote.

And the reason you posted this in 3 separate messages was… To gain more XP?

[tenfinney]

@peth

And the reason you posted this in 3 separate messages was… To gain more XP?

I really don’t understand how the XP calculations work, and am not here for that. I learn every time I do something in MetaGame, and that’s my prize. So I would be happy to get docked a penalty anytime it looks like to you, or anyone else that I am trying to do that.
That’s not my game at all.

[tenfinney]

@peth

Its not me who made the decision that “all pieces of MetaGame should follow the same design principles as laid out by the Designers Guild” nor that the Playbooks require way more info & features than your UI can properly accommodate.

The RG and MG designs are very far apart from my perspective, it’s one of the main reasons I came to MG. I liked the design work where RG had particular design style and atmosphere that was not aligned with what I liked.
I liked all the Octo stuff and assets that were created. You may dislike my templates (those are just a starting points), but the whole dark castle, demons and stuff are not the direction i would personally choose for MG, but I am just one voice.

[tenfinney]

@peth

Responding like a true lawyer!

Ouch. That requires a quick response. Just remember, I am not a lawyer. I went to law school to learn that game; not be a member of their cartel. In my book there is a huge difference, especially when one is faced with something serious. Kind of like the difference with knowing how to use a screwdriver or having to call a mechanic. I like screwdrivers, but loathe calling mechanics. But, if I have to call a mechanic, I’m glad they exist.

[tommy]

Is there a way to join the cohort in raid guild as member of MetaFam and learn some skills to make the UI and future things?

I would be interested

[tenfinney]

That’s a really good idea and could help drive the MG vision in the new RG cohort. Some of our existing players could go there to help make the MG website and stay true to our designs.

[defileZebra]

Are we expecting that for 5-10k that a Raid Guild cohort is going to design and spec out the system and then build it? … Or do we already have documented what is needed for the playbooks UI?

There are many things that need built, but it is my impression that we often lack specification for builders. If RG builds something that doesn’t meet our needs, I am not sure that its any better than our current state. If the issue being solved is that XP gains for github commits for publishing and maintaining playbooks is too high, then that is a sourcecred configuration issue, and not a good reason to build out a whole system for playbooks when github is otherwise effective.

I think the best way to achieve the goal is to have builders with skin in the game, this game, MetaGame.

Do we have any Octos within the RG cohort?

If yes, I would be supportive of this gesture/investment/bounty wtf we want to call it. If we have no MetaGamer’s within this RG cohort than I would likely oppose this proposal.

Is this an issue of specifications just sitting around not being built, or is the challenge truly that we dont actually have these items defined well enough for someone to build? I assume its the latter and is why I think we still have work to do before someone with the sought after skillset can do their thing.

[tommy]

I mean in all honesty, we don’t have playbooks. So not sure a UI is necessary yet hahah

Just sayin.

But yea, I agree that the specs or needs probably aren’t very clear atm.

[peth]

@tenfinney

I really don’t understand how the XP calculations work, and am not here for that. I learn every time I do something in MetaGame, and that’s my prize. So I would be happy to get docked a penalty anytime it looks like to you, or anyone else that I am trying to do that.
That’s not my game at all.

Yet you do the exact same thing after I ask you
But I actually don’t think you’re doing it on purpose, its just the dumb thing in sourcecred that each message creates a bit of XP even if nobody likes it or responds to it…

@tommy

Is there a way to join the cohort in raid guild as member of MetaFam and learn some skills to make the UI and future things?

Yeah, you most likely can enter the RG cohort.

@defileZebra

Are we expecting that for 5-10k that a Raid Guild cohort is going to design and spec out the system and then build it? … Or do we already have documented what is needed for the playbooks UI?

We already have a bunch documented but specced only to a degree, currently being further specced.

@defileZebra

If the issue being solved is that XP gains for github commits for publishing and maintaining playbooks is too high, then that is a sourcecred configuration issue, and not a good reason to build out a whole system for playbooks when github is otherwise effective.

Its not just that, that should still be solved separately by lowering weight. The UI/UX problem of actually submitting the playbooks could also be solved without moving from docusaurus, but not much else, which makes it less valuable to fix it while on docusaurus.

So the first step is building it into TheGame repo, then we can start building features such as upvoting, sorting, commenting etc.

@defileZebra

Do we have any Octos within the RG cohort?

The jonathanp is co-running the cohort so he’ll be acting as the main bridge.

@tommy

I mean in all honesty, we don’t have playbooks. So not sure a UI is necessary yet hahah

Bet ya a lot more people would be willing to submit playbooks if the UX was smooth instead of going through github & basically needing a whole playbook just about submitting if you’re not familiar with using it. Which is most writers.

[Dave]

I love the idea of MG builders building everything that’s on the roadmap, without any help from the “outside”.
But I can’t deny what was stated here - our builders are too few and already extremely busy with ongoing quests.

What I believe would make this decision much easier is learning more about the following, should we decide to entrust RG with this quest:

1. Do we have any idea about a ballpark deadline for delivery? Or how long the building process is gonna take, once it begins?
2. What exactly is the final price going to depend on?
3. What exactly is their way of working? E.g. are they going to commit to participating in our weekly builder align calls?

Additionally, from our end:
A) what of the spec and documentation for this project do we already have ready?
B) If anything is missing that RG builders need to kick this off, who is ultimately responsible for that from our side?

[Misanth]

I’m not sure, it all seems rather confusing and some arguments seem rather conflicting.

• Sometimes we’re MetaGame and aligned with the rest under MetaFam, other times we’re MetaFam, all aligned with the rest under MetaGame, depending on how it fits and time passes. - It’s a bit of a convoluted narrative and we ought to clarify on that should we use it

• Is it 5.00 (five) - 10 000.00 (ten thousand) $$ ? Seems like a rather big range

• If we are already paying our builders, is it safe to assume we could pay their builders the same way? We never offered our community members raw payments denominated in dollars, which is specifically a part of (builders) non-engagement. -unfortunately

• If we are all MetaFam, why isn’t the potential of gaining new active players from other camps constant? Shouldn’t that be a constant benefit by default since we’re fam instead of them being opportunistic activities? We definitively shill RaidGuild all the time without asking them for sponsoring (“if we sponsor cohorts, they may send players” “If we pay them to make our playbooks UI, they may send new players”)

• The issue of funds already allocated to other things is precisely why I’m advocating for accounting everything in a clear way for all these months, but we’re not taking it seriously. How are we to explore expanding our tokenomics when we can’t get the very basics correct. Won’t go deeper since it’s a subject of it’s own but I’m strongly against Re-Allocating what was already voted on unless there’s a strong reason.
  The solution that remains is creating an initiative and I believe RaidGuild should already have an ID in our sourcecred. However, creating an initiative will have it’s own consequences we need to bear in mind

• That being said, we are in a bit of a crisis in terms of building power, swimming between not having enough builders and not having enough dedicated builders. I just think that if we’re going the bounty route (offering direct cash) we should start from the inside and if we find the solution here, we can still donate/sponsor RaidGuild as part of the “MetaGame”
  -For example we donate 10k for underfunded projects that want RaidGuild to build them something, making their application easier(like a 20% discount for five aligned projects powered by MetaFam or MetaGame<----see, another confusion in regards to the narrative). It may seem as redundant semantics but it makes a big difference.
  I really am not sure as I’m both for and against, depending on the context and I’d like to be clear that I’m not undermining RaidGuild. In fact, I think they’re pretty epic

PS
The way XP works here in Discourse is:

• Original poster gets the fat xp, each subsequent reply flows xp to the original poster along with any hearts. The replies themselves get xp if someone hearts them or replies again.
• TLDR @tenfinney isn’t farming XP, he’s actually giving you chunks of XP so you should thank him for engaging with your thread, not mock and portray as a farmer in a discussion about paying RaidGuild to build us a Playbooks UI

[peth]

@Dave

Do we have any idea about a ballpark deadline for delivery? Or how long the building process is gonna take, once it begins?

1 month

@Dave

What exactly is the final price going to depend on?

Our requirements for the MVP

@Dave

What exactly is their way of working? E.g. are they going to commit to participating in our weekly builder align calls?

If that’s our requirement, they will

@Dave

A) what of the spec and documentation for this project do we already have ready?

Most of it I’d say

@Dave

B) If anything is missing that RG builders need to kick this off, who is ultimately responsible for that from our side?

I am, but I’m also getting help from Alec on the technical side & jonathanp to act as the bridge. I’ll also check in with dan13 to see if he’s interested in jumping in on this.

@Misanth

Sometimes we’re MetaGame and aligned with the rest under MetaFam, other times we’re MetaFam, all aligned with the rest under MetaGame, depending on how it fits and time passes. - It’s a bit of a convoluted narrative and we ought to clarify on that should we use it

I have been making a distinction between MetaGame & MetaFam since day 1, trying to explain that MetaFam is currently the only guild building MetaGame but is meant to be just one of many as we progress & grow. MetaFam is one of the guilds on metagame.wtf/guild & 1/19 members of the MetaAlliance. I never said anything remotely like “we are aligned under MetaFam”. We are aligned under the MetaManifesto to play MetaGame.

@Misanth

Is it 5.00 (five) - 10 000.00 (ten thousand) $$ ? Seems like a rather big range

Yes. Its a rough number I got without even sending in the spec. The final number will mainly depend on us & our requirements. But even 10k doesn’t sound like a lot for a full project to get built in a month.

@Misanth

If we are already paying our builders, is it safe to assume we could pay their builders the same way? We never offered our community members raw payments denominated in dollars, which is specifically a part of (builders) non-engagement. -unfortunately

No because it has to go through their system & it can’t be an initiative because initiatives are unpredictable in amounts as well as go on for longer than 1 time.

@Misanth

If we are all MetaFam, why isn’t the potential of gaining new active players from other camps constant? Shouldn’t that be a constant benefit by default since we’re fam instead of them being opportunistic activities? We definitively shill RaidGuild all the time without asking them for sponsoring (“if we sponsor cohorts, they may send players” “If we pay them to make our playbooks UI, they may send new players”)

Again, we are not all MetaFam. And the potential of gaining new active players from other camps isn’t constant because we aren’t constantly doing things that create visibility & value. Raid Guild has their own thing going & doesn’t actually need us even in the slightest. We also don’t constantly shill Raid Guild though in our case it would make more sense because we claim to be the onboarding machine that sends people to these other projects, while in the case of Raid Guild, they get people who are already onboarded & their cohorts are 10x the size of ours.

@Misanth

The issue of funds already allocated to other things is precisely why I’m advocating for accounting everything in a clear way for all these months, but we’re not taking it seriously. How are we to explore expanding our tokenomics when we can’t get the very basics correct . Won’t go deeper since it’s a subject of it’s own but I’m strongly against Re-Allocating what was already voted on unless there’s a strong reason.
The solution that remains is creating an initiative and I believe RaidGuild should already have an ID in our sourcecred. However, creating an initiative will have it’s own consequences we need to bear in mind

Idk where have you been advocating for it besides mentioning it once to me but you are always free to champion accounting or put a proposal that requires anyone working with funds to record txs.
To me, this sounds like a strong enough reason to reconsider but I also suggested that I’m happy to cover for it & be repaid after the fundraise so I think its not an issue either way.

@Misanth

That being said, we are in a bit of a crisis in terms of building power, swimming between not having enough builders and not having enough dedicated builders. I just think that if we’re going the bounty route (offering direct cash) we should start from the inside and if we find the solution here, we can still donate/sponsor RaidGuild as part of the “MetaGame”

Offering some players to circumvent the XP system & receive direct cash rewards opens a can of worm that imo we really shouldn’t open.
And again, its not that we couldn’t get existing players to build this if we actually focused on it, but that we have a SHIT TON of other shit that needs to get built & a very limited number of active builders.

@Misanth

• Original poster gets the fat xp, each subsequent reply flows xp to the original poster along with any hearts. The replies themselves get xp if someone hearts them or replies again.
• TLDR @tenfinney isn’t farming XP, he’s actually giving you chunks of XP so you should thank him for engaging with your thread, not mock and portray as a farmer in a discussion about paying RaidGuild to build us a Playbooks UI

It was literally you who told me that just posting a message already creates XP
But that’s not the point, I wasn’t mocking him & as I’ve said, I didn’t think he’s actually intentionally doing that. I wanted to let him know it probably shouldn’t be done because of XP but also simply because forums shouldn’t be use as chat because it only adds more scrolling time & notifications for everyone.

[FearlessThompson]

I liked the idea originally but the charge is too high, if they see us as equals & apart of the ecosystem & buy into our community. Why should it cost $5k-10k for an aspect of MG that isn’t one of the most enthusing features - I’d vote Yes if it was favour or 20% of the cost…

In the UK we have a thing called Mates Rates, in Japan Keiretsu - This is the opposite.

This can be a win/win but this is exploitative in its current form in my opinion. It also jeopardises current people working on other things in MetaGame’s potential to earn & support themselves

[peth]

@FearlessThompson

I liked the idea originally but the charge is too high

How can you say that when you know neither what they’re going to build nor how much effort will it take?

@FearlessThompson

for an aspect of MG that isn’t one of the most enthusing features

We agreed Playbooks are the next most important module besides MyMeta…

@FearlessThompson

I’d vote Yes if it was favour or 20% of the cost

Really? You’d want them to build the Playbooks UI for $1-2k?

@FearlessThompson

It also jeopardises current people working on other things in MetaGame’s potential to earn & support themselves

It doesn’t. I offered to personally cover for it & be paid back after the fundraise.
Also, we mint ~$150k/month & you’re afraid $5-10k will jeopardize the project?